This saddens and sickens me that our "leaders" think this way.
Tek-Tips is the largest IT community on the Internet today!
Members share and learn making Tek-Tips Forums the best source of peer-reviewed technical information on the Internet!
-
Congratulations IamaSherpa on being selected by the Tek-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
1984 Was Only 32 Or So Years Off 8
- Thread starter SamBones
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #2
ChrisHirst
IS-IT--Management
Well of course the "might",
Just like they "might":
[ul]
[li]be reading all your email,[/li]
[li]listening to "every" phone call,[/li]
[li]checking every website you visit,[/li]
[li]tracking your every movement on CCTV,[/li]
[li]looking at everything you buy when shopping (ooh no, that's just the supermarket and you willing let them do that)[/li]
[/ul]
Chris.
Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Time flies like an arrow, however, fruit flies like a banana.
Webmaster Forum
Just like they "might":
[ul]
[li]be reading all your email,[/li]
[li]listening to "every" phone call,[/li]
[li]checking every website you visit,[/li]
[li]tracking your every movement on CCTV,[/li]
[li]looking at everything you buy when shopping (ooh no, that's just the supermarket and you willing let them do that)[/li]
[/ul]
Chris.
Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Time flies like an arrow, however, fruit flies like a banana.
Webmaster Forum
- Thread starter
- #4
It still amazes me how people plaster details of their lives on Facebook and other social media. Not only do they put pictures of every detail of their lives up, but they also tag and annotate who's in the so the NSA (etc) don't have to bother with the relationship cross references.
ChrisHirst
IS-IT--Management
But if you have nothing to hide ... ... Why bother hiding anything??
Chris.
Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Time flies like an arrow, however, fruit flies like a banana.
Webmaster Forum
Chris.
Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Time flies like an arrow, however, fruit flies like a banana.
Webmaster Forum
-
1
- #6
-
1
- #7
johnherman
MIS
<star> for strongm
@ChrisHirst - it's the principle, not whether it applies to you.
Example: Hitler persecutes the Jews. I don't care, I'm not Jewish. Hitler next persecutes the Christians. Woah. You can't do that! That group includes ME.
==================================
adaptive uber info galaxies (bigger, better, faster, and more adept than cognitive innovative agile big data clouds)
@ChrisHirst - it's the principle, not whether it applies to you.
Example: Hitler persecutes the Jews. I don't care, I'm not Jewish. Hitler next persecutes the Christians. Woah. You can't do that! That group includes ME.
==================================
adaptive uber info galaxies (bigger, better, faster, and more adept than cognitive innovative agile big data clouds)
ChrisHirst
IS-IT--Management
No matter how old it is, it still remains true.
And the simple fact is you have a choice of living in the 'modern' world with "information technology" and the necessary transparency that it brings and/or requires, or go back a century or so and do without it, which means:
no cheques/checks
No credit cards
No store cards
No loyalty cards
No debit cards
No mobile/cell phones
No email
No text messaging
No instant messaging
Good news for the post office of course, but are you willing to wait ten or fourteen days for something you order today to arrive, because you have to go to your bank, transfer the funds, wait for it to be processed by hand etc. etc.
I hear this fatuous idea about "nothing is private" and "Big Brother" really is watching everyone, the answer is very simple:
If you don't want anyone to know about yourself then don't tell them and what ANYONE ELSE puts on facebook or whatever is absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with ANYONE ELSE whether you agree with it or not.
When I was a kid the general rule was, don't tell your mates anything you don't want your mother to know about.
Chris.
Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Time flies like an arrow, however, fruit flies like a banana.
Webmaster Forum
And the simple fact is you have a choice of living in the 'modern' world with "information technology" and the necessary transparency that it brings and/or requires, or go back a century or so and do without it, which means:
no cheques/checks
No credit cards
No store cards
No loyalty cards
No debit cards
No mobile/cell phones
No email
No text messaging
No instant messaging
Good news for the post office of course, but are you willing to wait ten or fourteen days for something you order today to arrive, because you have to go to your bank, transfer the funds, wait for it to be processed by hand etc. etc.
I hear this fatuous idea about "nothing is private" and "Big Brother" really is watching everyone, the answer is very simple:
If you don't want anyone to know about yourself then don't tell them and what ANYONE ELSE puts on facebook or whatever is absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with ANYONE ELSE whether you agree with it or not.
When I was a kid the general rule was, don't tell your mates anything you don't want your mother to know about.
Chris.
Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Time flies like an arrow, however, fruit flies like a banana.
Webmaster Forum
-
1
- Thread starter
- #9
ChrisHirst said:
I think this is a completely false assumption. Why does the government need a transparent look at every day to day activity in our lives, just so we can participate in a technology enhanced society? That's an absurd assumption. It's a false premise. Any logical argument based on that concept is trash.
Yes, you have to give personal information to banking institutions and such to participate in the services they offer, but that does NOT mean the government should get copied on the details (metadata or content) of every transaction. The fact that I like the convenience of carrying a small phone with me everywhere I go does NOT mean I have granted the government the right to track my every movement and record all of my associations (that's all "just" metadata). Yes, I may have given them the means to do that, but that shouldn't mean they have the authority to do that.
The fact that people just accept the fact that any and all information about them is pretty much "up for grabs" just dumbfounds me (gobsmacks for those across the pond).
This is why the links I provided above so disgust me. I keep reading article after article about the horrible security being provided by IoT enabled devices. I just imagine dark rooms in the NSA and CIA and other TLAs with people high-fiving each other about all the new pathways into people's lives that will be opening up. The articles linked pretty much prove it.
RIP 4th Ammendment! (Another one bites the dust)
johnherman
MIS
It's not like this kind of lifestyle spying hasn't been going on before. But before, you needed a warrant or court order. The "new face" is that they can take a peek at your life whenever they feel like it, for whatever reason.
15 years ago, when they busted some farmers in my county for marijuana growing, they had to get a court order for the electric company to provide the investigating bodies (police plus DEA) with electric usage. Yeah, they were using those high power grow bulbs back then. Then, with probably cause, they could get the courts to issue a search warrant for the property. (note: I'm not sure where their *probably cause* existed to get the electric records, but let's assume that was done legally).
Yup, agree with SamBones. I we don't take action now, the 4th Amendment will be gone.
From the language differences, I'm guessing ChrisHirst is not American, so I can somewhat sympathize with his situation. He hasn't truly known the 4th Amendment as a citizen's right.
==================================
adaptive uber info galaxies (bigger, better, faster, and more adept than cognitive innovative agile big data clouds)
15 years ago, when they busted some farmers in my county for marijuana growing, they had to get a court order for the electric company to provide the investigating bodies (police plus DEA) with electric usage. Yeah, they were using those high power grow bulbs back then. Then, with probably cause, they could get the courts to issue a search warrant for the property. (note: I'm not sure where their *probably cause* existed to get the electric records, but let's assume that was done legally).
Yup, agree with SamBones. I we don't take action now, the 4th Amendment will be gone.
From the language differences, I'm guessing ChrisHirst is not American, so I can somewhat sympathize with his situation. He hasn't truly known the 4th Amendment as a citizen's right.
==================================
adaptive uber info galaxies (bigger, better, faster, and more adept than cognitive innovative agile big data clouds)
ChrisHirst
IS-IT--Management
They don't, the supply companies systems will flag anything unusually high simply because of the need to manage the distribution
Oh please ... It was written FOUR HUNDRED YEARS AGO in a time when most of the population thought the planet was about 6,000 years old and the bible was the absolute word of a god. Mind that last bit still seems to be true
This is one thing that ALWAYS makes me laugh, Americans claim they want the Government to protect it's citizens from every possible threat from anywhere and any body, whilst simultaneously wanting the Government to know nothing at all about any one.
You CANNOT have it both ways.
Same with the "2nd amendment" You cannot give every Tom, Dick and Harry "The right to bear arms" and then be shocked when another nut case with a gun he is allowed to carry about, decides to have a 'shoot-out' in a school or a shopping mall.
Chris.
Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Time flies like an arrow, however, fruit flies like a banana.
Webmaster Forum
- Thread starter
- #13
ChrisHirst said:
You've generalized over 322 million people and assume they all want the same thing. Do I have to point out the fallacy of this premise?
You're comments on the 4th and 2nd amendments tells me that you don't understand what the US is all about. The whole purpose behind the declaration of independence and bill of rights, the two documents that define The United States, is to give more power to the people, and limit the power of government. When those documents are respected and followed, the US is the land of opportunity it has a worldwide reputation for. That's the source of our "freedom" and "opportunity". The problem is that the government has grown, and has stopped following "the rules". This leads to abuses all over the map, not just to US citizens, but to other countries.
Yeah, that has no bearing on some nutcase taking a gun and shooting up a school, but a massive big brother watching every citizen wouldn't stop that. You might think that making guns illegal and confiscating them would stop gun violence. You're right, since you may have noticed how making drugs illegal has completely eliminated illegal drug use in the US [/sarcasm]. If you look at the FBI stats, the majority of gun deaths in the US are gang related. Gangs are built and fed by the money they make on illegal drug sales (among other things). It seems that stopping "The War on Drugs" would save a lot of black lives. Obama may speak up and mourn a Treyvon Martin, but he is silent on the fact that his own home town of Chicago can have 20 children killed in one day. To Obama, black lives don't matter, political lives matter.
I'm just frustrated that we seem to be heading down a very dark hole. I feel like we're already way down that hole, but very few other people seem to notice. I'm afraid everyone else won't see it till we're way too deep in a bad situation.
And people who don't care are part of the problem, not the solution.
Something I saw in someone's sig said:
Heard somewhere on the Interwebs said:
ChrisHirst
IS-IT--Management
Actually I DO understand, maybe a little too well, .... .... as I can see the US from an outside viewpoint.
I understand that anything where the 'rules' do not change for hundreds of years IS by it's very nature, fundamentalism and as such has little or no scope for future changes and it is in fact doomed to stagnate, because the people who treat those rules and declarations as unerring absolutes to be followed forever are, or will become, intransigent and insular, this is the 'dark hole' that you think the US is 'falling' in to, while in reality it is busy digging it for itself.
Nope I know that it will not have any such effect, and I would sincerely hope that America, as a nation, should have learned that lesson during the period from January 16th 1920 until October 5th 1933.
There is only one thing that will stop 'gun violence' and most other 'crimes of violence' and that is the equal distribution of resources, when no one "wants" or actually needs anything, so there is no need to forcibly take it from someone else, and that includes political and financial 'power'.
The so-called "War on Drugs" is not a war against the use, abuse and supply of certain substances that have been deemed 'illegal', it is a war of control, the so-called 'drug problem' could be wiped out overnight by governments taking over the supply and making it available 'on demand' or for a nominal cost, then the people who want to kill themselves with habit forming chemicals can do so, and just like the things that actually KILL FAR MORE PEOPLE than 'illegal' drugs do ie. tobacco and alcohol, they can also pay taxes for the privilege.
The result is that the illegal trade dries up in a very short time, no need to fight useless and pointless wars in countries that most Americans couldn't find on a world map never mind pronounce the name of, which would save lives and money for EVERY country involved AND allow more time, money and people to improve the social infrastructure in every "deprived" area.
And on the "second amendment" I would think that wagering that the majority of the people clamouring to keep that 'right' have no idea in the slightest as to why it was introduced in the first place would be a pretty safe bet.
Chris.
Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Time flies like an arrow, however, fruit flies like a banana.
Webmaster Forum
>I understand that anything where the 'rules' do not change for hundreds of years
1) But the 'rules' do change - that's exactly what the Amendments are
2) And it seems like an ill-thought through objection in any case. Presumably it means you are also against our own (UK) Habeas Corpus Act, which is about 100 years older than the 4th Amendment (or, if we take it back to article 39 of Magna Carta from which it prettu much directly derives, then about 560 years older ...). Then there's the Terason act of 1351, still in force (Yes, both are amended from the original; see point 1)
1) But the 'rules' do change - that's exactly what the Amendments are
2) And it seems like an ill-thought through objection in any case. Presumably it means you are also against our own (UK) Habeas Corpus Act, which is about 100 years older than the 4th Amendment (or, if we take it back to article 39 of Magna Carta from which it prettu much directly derives, then about 560 years older ...). Then there's the Terason act of 1351, still in force (Yes, both are amended from the original; see point 1)
-
1
- #16
holdmusic34
Vendor
Like the book, hope lies with the Proles.
We are the dead.
NSA answers from behind the telescreen, 'You are the dead."
There's one with a hump. And one with a lump.
We are the dead.
NSA answers from behind the telescreen, 'You are the dead."
There's one with a hump. And one with a lump.
ChrisHirst
IS-IT--Management
But the "amendments" haven't changed since the day they were added (c1789 in the case of the 'first' amendment), in the case of the Magna Carta, it is the principle of those 'statutes' that applies to this day NOT the literal application of the words. If it was all taken literally, Jews specifically, would not be allowed to profit from the lending of money.
Chris.
Indifference will be the downfall of mankind, but who cares?
Time flies like an arrow, however, fruit flies like a banana.
Webmaster Forum
johnherman
MIS
ChrisHirst said:
This is exactly the opposite of the stance of the late Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, who advocated "originalism".
Scalia said, "But originalism does not invite him to make the law what he thinks it should be, nor does it permit him to distort history with impunity.”
==================================
adaptive uber info galaxies (bigger, better, faster, and more adept than cognitive innovative agile big data clouds)
I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek going back to Magna Carta.
>But the "amendments" haven't changed since the day they were added
Their interpretation - since the Consitition and Amendments are in reality a set of principles - has changed. For example, since you mention the 1st Amendment, it originally only applied to Congressional laws. It was extended to states through the the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. See, not unsurprisingly later amendments can affect earlier amendments without changing the wording of the original amendment. ANd a number of exceptions have been continually introduced in both the 20th and 21st Century.
>But the "amendments" haven't changed since the day they were added
Their interpretation - since the Consitition and Amendments are in reality a set of principles - has changed. For example, since you mention the 1st Amendment, it originally only applied to Congressional laws. It was extended to states through the the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. See, not unsurprisingly later amendments can affect earlier amendments without changing the wording of the original amendment. ANd a number of exceptions have been continually introduced in both the 20th and 21st Century.
-
1
- Thread starter
- #20
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Question
- Locked
- Question
- Locked
- Question
- Locked
- News