Looking for opinions on whether to install patch panel or cross connect voice and data devices. These will be large installation/IDF's. Also site will have many moves, adds and changes on going.

What type of phone system and is it modular.  

Kevin Wing
ACSS Small and Medium Enterprise (SME) Communications
ACS- Implement IP Office
ACA- Implement IP Office
Carousel Industries

Avaya 1000e with digital and ip phones. We are accustomed to cross connecting on everything voice and data. But a consultant would like everything to be on patch panel which seems to be a step backward.

How are you cross connecting IP phones? I can't imagine that.
And if the consultaant is asking for patch panels and the customer agrees then why not? Keep them happy and give them what they want.
Customers love patch panels for the simple fact that it is easier to move a station than the "complexity" of x-connect wire.  

since everything is going to be run as Cat5/Cat5e anyway, just go with patch panels. station moves are pretty much done in software anyway these days.

I would do Cross Connects. You said an Avaya 1000e, which really is the old Nortel CS1000, and since you are going to be doing digital, I think cross connects would be best. Coming out of the switch will be 25 pair cables, and usually everyone takes these to 66 blocks that you then terminate your C5 on blocks also. I just find it much easier when trying to move things around or in the event you need to do analog lines or even take two phone lines to one cat5. It makes it much easier to work on in my opinion. If it was all VOIP, then of course don't worry about cross connects, but I still think they have their place.

I see a few questions i would have to ask myself.
1. are the phones ip or tradional. If your using ip phones rack and patch panel all the way)
2. how large are the idf's. need to make sure if you have your phones on patch panels then you need to make sure that the idfs are large enough to support  the addition racks and wire management. If you are using a traditional pbx and space is a premium you may consider the using 110 blocks on the wall will take up less real estate.
3. what are the qualifications of the people who will be making the moves adds and changes.
Patch panels are easier to train unkilled people
4 you may want to consider a combination of the two  cronnects between the pbx and the risers in the IDFs and patch panel in the indiviual idf's.   

T.R.
RCDD

there may not be any stupid questions
but their is a bunch of inquizative idiots
(myself included at times)

From a installation perspective I like cross connect for phone, but for ease of changes a well marked patch panel is very user friendly.
I like to install patch panels because they take longer and therefore I earn more. The only thing I don't like about them is the customer does their own moves and changes, so I don't get called back as often.

cross connect and don't mark your blocks then they will be less apt to fire you....

I have muliple Avaya/Nortel sites, and yes cross connects have their place now, on the telco blue board. I install patch panels for everything, especially for a VoIP pbx. Even have patch panels that route back to Telco blue board, there the cable terminates to a 66block, you run a x connect from telco side to yours= CO dial tone at a patch panel. Keeps everything simple, so simple you can talk a pc support guy over the phone on how to do a move for you.
No offense pc support folks of the world, lol.  

For me....cross connects for analog & digital devices and POTS lines....patch panels for IP phones and computers.

If it ain't broke, I haven't fixed it yet.

If the system pins out on amps I cut down the whole system on
100 pair 110 block crossconnect to house cables that are cut down on 110 blocks
if it is the  Tda50g I actually make up  2 octopus cables
made out of short pieces of leftover 25 pair and cut them
down on 2 rails on a 110 block
its bad enough that IT people have crossed over into our field
why make it easy on them to do macs on our equipment

as far doing this with data cables that and making your own patch cables is not advisable ....

I agree with Dexman and thats the way we handle things here. Voice on cross connects (these will hold up longer with constant moves) and patch panels for data connections.

But it really boils down to what the customer wants. Their the ones that going to have to pay the bill when your though.  

When is the last time you helped someone, just because you were able to?

For the best response to a question, read FAQ690-6594: How to ask the best questions and site policies
 
 
 

Try this link

http://lh3.ggpht.com/abramsv/R-8V6vXRjSI/AAAAAAAANC4/RLBSbFxaGiA/s640/2036057464_0cc80962b6_o.jpg

Wow, do I miss my Bix.

KE407122
'Who is this guy named Lo Cel and why does he keep paging me?'

That picture never gets old!

If it ain't broke, I haven't fixed it yet.

Uh was that patch panels?? Hard to tell but it looks like it. I'll stick to cross connects for voice.. :)  

When is the last time you helped someone, just because you were able to?

For the best response to a question, read FAQ690-6594: How to ask the best questions and site policies
 
 
 

I had someone years ago why we were still punching down jumpers and I pointed to the 30' of type 2 cable jumper about 1' thick on the floor he was standing on. LOL yep 30' cable for a 5' patch and coil the rest on the floor. I have yet to see a backboard that I can not find both ends of the jumper where a patch panel you are scared to pull on the wires for fear of loosening others.

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you don't have to tell me that the whole patch panel concept
for telephony was invented for I.T community that know nothing about color code or cutting down a 25 pair!

I have a casino that i have a opt switch in with voip and dig extions in i used 110 blocks for both,All wired with cat 5. They do make a connector that snaps on to the 110 to cat 5 and plug it in to the switch they work great, And i run jumpers for the other's,

I know exactly  what you are talking about you can cut down every blessed cable in the place on a huge 100 pr 110 block and get fancy and put you data on its own rails and go 110 to 8 pos plug right into hub/switch  and if its a idf they have 110 to 110 jumper as well so if there is a riser you can patch out accordingly I priced it out and it is way less to use what you described and you probably get the same performance out of them..!

I have used them on huge smart home projects  I happen to use icc stuff what i do is leave a test jig with 6pos 4 conductor jack short piece of x connect to a a 2 pair version of that stashed in each vault for voice test purposes gives you the ability to troubleshoot feeds of the frame to idf's on 110 stuff...

Would go with the consultant, cat5 to every outlet and just connect the switch to rj45 patch panels and cross connect.

Have done a site were I have spread the switches ports digital and analogue between the cabinets so all you have to do is move things in software and re patch in required, sipmles.

Wall mount jumper wire systems are the best and easiest to add cables later. You get more for your money $$$$$
 Note:
Most contractors install voice and data patch panels, that are actually a number of independent networks, each doing its own thing, over there own set of wires and cables. The problem with this is you have no flexibility of configuration. In other words, you are stuck with what you have, and if your need change and you will most likely have to rewire to accommodate them. Each jack is less powerful because of its specialized use. Total system cost must be much higher for a given level of functionality. The system will work, but is neither structured, nor optimal.

"Cheap Patch Cords"
Most if not all contractors test and certify for a link configuration and not a channel. The contractors link measurements are done with special equipment and patch cords that come with the tester. The network is usually installed weeks before the computers. As a result patch cords are often purchased at the cheapest possible price with no consideration for performance. Don't let cheap patch cords be the weak link, in your IT structured cabling system, whether that system is copper-or-fiber-based.

Cheap patch cords will cause impedance mismatch between components and will result in signal reflections at low frequencies.  

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